Get comfortable. Offtopic introspection ahead.

[Urb4n]

Originally Posted by Deepwaters

Human brains are more sophisticated and more intelligent than those of other animals. But it's not true that other animals all have only their survival instinct. Many other species are capable of play, humor, love, compassion, and even some basic abstract thought and self-awareness. The difference between our brains and those of other species is only one of degree.

I'll have to go against you there. I fully believe that animals are capable of play and such, but emotions like love, self-awareness, hatred, and happiness are something of suspect. The emotions that we think we see in animals (i personally believe) is just our brains compensating for the lack of said emotions. When we see animals fight, for example, we assume they hate each other. We do this because, in a situation where one person hates another, fighting is seen as an acceptable reaction to it. And for play, child play is very important to developing skills to be used later in life. Animals use it as a training program of sorts to build skills to survive in the wild. Our brains only assume that the animals are happy, because as a child we were happy when we played.

My whole point is, I truly do not believe animals have emotion. Thier brains are large enough to hold the code for instinctual behavior. But beyond that I doubt they truly love or hate or can expirience happiness. Sure they can feel pain or pleasure. But in truth, all emotion that we assume animals have is really our brain personifying them, trying to understand them.

Many will argue that animals must have some capacity for emotion lest why would they be lifelong companions for some, or be aware of thier names when called? I think any animal is capable of building a coexistential relationship with another once they realise it's to thier benefit. If you kept your dog outside and quit feeding all of a sudden, you think it would stick around to the point of starvation? At one point it's going to make a decision to leave and feed itself. And as far as understanding thier name, i don't believe they do. I think that they work on the principle of sound signals. Certain sounds are recgonised by them, such as mating calls. Once they hear a sound repeatedly ( thier name for example) they understand that as meaning a couple of things, maybe a chance to go outside, or a chance to eat.

Again this is just my opinion based on what little knowledge my brain has stored

[Killian]

Animals can and do displayand feel emotions.

Happiness is a basic emotion in most intelligent animals, as is fear, sadness etc.

Swans for example have been known to mourn for the loss of their companion (sadness). Dolphins have displayed acts of extreme sadness and are capable of tears when their "friends" are killed.

Chimpanzees are capable of compassion, and have been known to display it. They are the only other animal, besides humans, which know they are causing pain to others, and can choose whether or not to do it.

So I feel some animals, not all, are very capable of emotions.

[Deepwaters]

Originally Posted by Urb4n

I'll have to go against you there. I fully believe that animals are capable of play and such, but emotions like love, self-awareness, hatred, and happiness are something of suspect. The emotions that we think we see in animals (i personally believe) is just our brains compensating for the lack of said emotions.

Well, let me ask you this. Granted that we cannot prove that an animal feels emotions when we see behavior that such emotions are normally associated with -- how can we prove that any human being other than oneself does, either? Simple answer: we cannot. We cannot demonstrate objectively the existence of any emotion, in any creature whatsoever, apart from the behavior and neuronic activity with which we associate it. And if it is reasonable nonetheless to assume that other human beings do have genuine feelings, on what basis can we say that it is not equally reasonable to make the same assumption about animals, on the exact same evidence?

[Tye]

Originally Posted by Deepwaters

[/COLOR][/B]Well, let me ask you this. Granted that we cannot prove that an animal feels emotions when we see behavior that such emotions are normally associated with -- how can we prove that any human being other than oneself does, either? Simple answer: we cannot. We cannot demonstrate objectively the existence of any emotion, in any creature whatsoever, apart from the behavior and neuronic activity with which we associate it. And if it is reasonable nonetheless to assume that other human beings do have genuine feelings, on what basis can we say that it is not equally reasonable to make the same assumption about animals, on the exact same evidence?

Something else to think about is this, how can you be sure that everything around you just isn't something your mind is creating? I know it sounds weird, but I saw a book on this at a Waldenbooks. There is no way for one human being to prove the existence of someone around them outside of their own mind. You can't prove another person's existence based on your ability to see, touch, smell, and hear them because these are senses your brain and mind are making real. So really everything your perceive is done so by your brain. This makes you wonder if what you are seeing and interacting with are actually real or just something your brain is emalating. How can you be sure that you are not in a world and environment that your brain is creating? This idea is what the Matrix films were loosely based on.

Another thing I read about is the fact that we only use 10% of our brain's capabilities. What would happen and what would a human be capable of if we could use all 100% of our brains?


Killian, I feel the same way you do. Some animals are capable of emotion. Dogs will mourn the loss of their owner if they are given to someone else, or if their owner dies. Dogs also mourn if a dog they have lived with for a long time dies.

I had two dogs. I only have one now. My Bichon Frisé ( look somewhat like a poodle if you don't know) was very young when I got him. I already had a poodle who was 10 years old. My Bichon lived with my poodle for 5 years, and they became very close. When my poodle got to where he was unable to get food for himself my Bichon would bring food to him, and my poodle would gladly eat it. After my poodle died, my Bichon contiued to leave piles of food in different places in my house, because he thought he still needed to continue to help my older poodle. He got very unactive, and even began to rebel. He continued to do this for about 5 months. This right here shows that animals have the capacity to help those in need, and that they can feel emotion.

[Killian]

If what your saying is true, Tye, couldn't the entire reality we think we know be a figment of our imagination and reality could be entirely different. In essence, we could be living a dream, and one day our brain could sense reality and it could be something unrecognisable.

Oh, and about the dog, sorry you lost him/her. I have a Maltese who is three and know that must have been hard.
And about emotions, I do feel my dog can feel love, or at least an abstract form of friendship. Each summer I go to California for two months, and we leave him with a friendly lady who looks after a lot of dogs. Now, he does enjoy this place and is happy to see her, but this summer when I dropped him off he nearly broke my heart. When we arrived he acted excited but after about a minute he calmed down and kept clawing my leg. I thought he just wanted to be picked up, so I did. He dug his claws into me and kept licking me. He refused to be put down, so the lady had to take him. Then, when we were walking back to the car he tried to run after us and come with us and when he couldn't he bgan to whine and yelp and I could hear him as my dad and I drove down the road. I felt like crying. If this isn't a sign of emotion in an animal I don't know what is. I know I can't prove it, as Deepwaters said that is impossible, but I strongly believe having experienced many things like this with my dog, I honestly feel he has the capacity for emotions.

[OGRE]

I found the mountain of text, with the bold slippery sans serif, nigh unassailable. However, I have established a base camp just beyond the first paragraph. In the morning, when I wake up, I'll stare up at the angry lofty peak, and ask myself, "Why go there"? But I already know the answer, as I pack up, head back down to the green line, pull out my En Concert DvD...and enjoy life.

[Tye]

Originally Posted by Killian

If what your saying is true, Tye, couldn't the entire reality we think we know be a figment of our imagination and reality could be entirely different. In essence, we could be living a dream, and one day our brain could sense reality and it could be something unrecognisable.

Really makes your head hurt to think about, doesn't it?

Originally Posted by Killian

Oh, and about the dog, sorry you lost him/her. I have a Maltese who is three and know that must have been hard.
And about emotions, I do feel my dog can feel love, or at least an abstract form of friendship. Each summer I go to California for two months, and we leave him with a friendly lady who looks after a lot of dogs. Now, he does enjoy this place and is happy to see her, but this summer when I dropped him off he nearly broke my heart. When we arrived he acted excited but after about a minute he calmed down and kept clawing my leg. I thought he just wanted to be picked up, so I did. He dug his claws into me and kept licking me. He refused to be put down, so the lady had to take him. Then, when we were walking back to the car he tried to run after us and come with us and when he couldn't he bgan to whine and yelp and I could hear him as my dad and I drove down the road. I felt like crying. If this isn't a sign of emotion in an animal I don't know what is. I know I can't prove it, as Deepwaters said that is impossible, but I strongly believe having experienced many things like this with my dog, I honestly feel he has the capacity for emotions.

Thank you for the kind words, Killian. Love and cherish your dog as much as possible, because when he/she is gone it really is like losing a best friend. It is like there is a big hole in your life. It is really hard to come to grips with the fact that they are gone and you feel like when look around the corner they will be looking back at you with that friendly lovable face. I hope you and your maltese have many more years of fun and love together, because when he/she is gone it is the memories that keep you happy.

About leaving your maltese to go on vacation, my bichon does the same thing when I leave him to go on vacation. I take him to my aunts, and he whines so much when I leave him. He loves to be around my aunt, but he can't stand it when I leave him. When I get back from vacation and pick him up he gets so excited. He will start to jump up and down and run around my legs until I pick him up and when I pick him up he licks me all over the face. That to me is a sign that he is very happy to see me and loves me.

[Rev]

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Originally Posted by Killian

If what your saying is true, Tye, couldn't the entire reality we think we know be a figment of our imagination and reality could be entirely different. In essence, we could be living a dream, and one day our brain could sense reality and it could be something unrecognisable.

Posted by Tye
Really makes your head hurt to think about, doesn't it? If Lili is a dream, then I don't want to wake up.


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Look at my location description (above right). Maya is a word menaing illusion, or the veil. Essentially, what you see is not true reality.

So, if you follow this thought, then Lili, as you currently think of her, truly IS a part of the dream.

[Rev]

Originally Posted by Tye

Something else to think about is this, how can you be sure that everything around you just isn't something your mind is creating? I know it sounds weird, but I saw a book on this at a Waldenbooks. There is no way for one human being to prove the existence of someone around them outside of their own mind. You can't prove another person's existence based on your ability to see, touch, smell, and hear them because these are senses your brain and mind are making real. So really everything your perceive is done so by your brain. This makes you wonder if what you are seeing and interacting with are actually real or just something your brain is emalating. How can you be sure that you are not in a world and environment that your brain is creating? This idea is what the Matrix films were loosely based on.

Heavy. But what if it is true?

Here is a thought. We see only the past. Everything we percieve is based on a model we built up starting in childhood.

We are taught in school that our body is made of energy (atoms, etc.) and yet we percieve a solid object where no solid object exists.

Perhaps it is because we are not seeing the present as it actually is, but rather a model we built up in our mind. Therfore, we see only the past, and therefore do not see reality as it actually is in this moment.

[Rev]

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I'll have to go against you there. I fully believe that animals are capable of play and such, but emotions like love, self-awareness, hatred, and happiness are something of suspect. The emotions that we think we see in animals (i personally believe) is just our brains compensating for the lack of said emotions.

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Originally Posted by Deepwaters

Well, let me ask you this. Granted that we cannot prove that an animal feels emotions when we see behavior that such emotions are normally associated with -- how can we prove that any human being other than oneself does, either? Simple answer: we cannot. We cannot demonstrate objectively the existence of any emotion, in any creature whatsoever, apart from the behavior and neuronic activity with which we associate it. And if it is reasonable nonetheless to assume that other human beings do have genuine feelings, on what basis can we say that it is not equally reasonable to make the same assumption about animals, on the exact same evidence?

Ever heard of the buddhist concept of emptiness. That nothing has any meaning at all other that the meaning we give it.

Or another thought, that we pass everything we see in others through our own filters. [back to the past again] That, in essence, we pull from our own past to interpret everything we percieve in the present. If so, both our preceptions of people and animals would be going through similar filters.